Episode 25: Beyond the Inbox: Investing in Email Marketing That Works
Discover the true investment behind email marketing success for e-commerce. Learn how to choose the right tools, build effective campaigns, and maximize revenue through strategic automation and audience segmentation.
“We focus on the urgent and important instead of the non-urgent important areas.”
Objectives
In this episode, you will be able to:
Understand the true cost of email marketing
Emphasize the value of ongoing investment
Explore how email marketing drives revenue and retention
Provide actionable steps for different business sizes
Transcript
Tim (00:00):
So Robbie, I’m thinking of starting an email campaign for my e-commerce business, and I signed up for Constant Contact. What are my next steps?
Robbie (00:09):
Well, I mean, email is pretty much free, so you don’t really need anything. Everybody can do it.
Tim (00:13):
Or should I just blast it from my Gmail?
Robbie (00:15):
Totally. This is the way to go. Good strategy.
Tim (00:18):
The full list. Everyone.
Robbie (00:20):
Everybody on the list. Gmail.
Robbie (00:23):
You’re gonna be more successful than a Nigerian prince.
Robbie (00:27):
I guarantee it.
Robbie (00:29):
But for real, what goes into investing in email and why you should do it? We’ll dive into it.
[Intro]
Robbie (00:44):
To all Nigerian princes, I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, but we’re gonna move forward. Hello, this is Tim and Robbie with the Content Community Commerce podcast. Really excited to talk shop on a topic near and dear to my heart. And this is part two of a two-part series on how much you should actually start investing in different components of your marketing. And this is the time where we’re gonna dive into email marketing and how much you should actually be investing in email marketing.
Tim (01:10):
I’m, I’m still confused. Like, why do I, like, again, it’s free. I got Gmail. Like, why, why do I need to invest in this?
Robbie (01:17):
This is the problem with any, and like, personally, working in social for a large portion of my career, this is like the problem that so many people run into and so many good marketers face. It’s like, “Hey, when the tools are free,” I always joke like, yeah, email marketing technically can be very affordable. It can be very cheap and in some cases free, but it’s about as expensive as a free puppy. A free puppy?
Robbie (01:40):
Yeah, it’s free, but the maintenance and understanding of how much it’s gonna cost you is a lot more than just free. So really understanding what it’s actually gonna cost you in terms of time and resources, but also what opportunity costs are you missing if you’re not doing it well because there’s lots of opportunity, especially in the e-commerce space on the email side.
Tim (02:00):
Yeah, so like all jokes aside, obviously, yeah, there’s Gmail, but really you can’t use Gmail if you’re… Even though they do have a template, you cannot use that if you want to scale. So like walk us through, what is that like? There are platforms and other things, like what does that look like?
Robbie (02:16):
So if you’re an e-commerce business looking to get serious about working in the email space or just any business looking to get serious about this, you’re gonna be, first off, investing in your ESP, your email service provider. Typically, that’s going to be based on how many email sends you’re having each month. Basically, you’re gonna get charged per seat or per send, and that’s basically going to be a certain percentage that’s just allocated towards that. And depending on the size of your list, it may be larger or smaller.
Tim (02:43):
So that’s like bare-bones investment. Like a company needs to be prepared, like, “Hey, before we even send an email, it’s gonna cost us this much for each time we send something out.”
Robbie (02:52):
Yeah, and again, especially if you’re getting started here, you probably have a small list; you’re probably not paying that much. It’s pretty affordable. And that’s one of those just investments, like you’re making in Slack, paying for Slack for a team, or paying for Asana as a project management software. That’s just one of those table stakes you really have to plan for. What really comes into play is like if you do want to use email as a channel for growth, how are you investing in it? And what are you thinking about in terms of what you’re getting out of that investment? I get this question a lot from prospective clients, like, “How much should email cost? How much should I be thinking about investing in email?” And again, as a marketer would say, it depends because depending on what your goals are, how aggressive you wanna be, versus how you wanna work, it’s going to really vary. But thinking, if you’re going to be using email as a channel on the e-commerce side, ideally, you’re gonna have like 35 to 45% of your revenue coming from the email side of things. Directly touching that on the retention side, you’re going to hopefully feel more comfortable investing that money on the front end because you’re gonna see a really strong ROI on the back end too.
Tim (04:01):
But like, is this like, am I investing as an ongoing thing, or do I not just, like, “Hey, I need an abandoned cart, I need a couple of discount offer templates, and I’m good to go”? Like why do I need to keep… I’m sorry, Robbie. I’m like the person that doesn’t get your sales pitch here. Help me out.
Robbie (04:20):
Okay, so what you really need to be thinking about is, yes, those table stakes, baseline automations, those are super necessary for any e-commerce site. But what you really want to be thinking about is how is that going to align with my strategy? How am I gonna start to align automations, campaigns, and audience building? Again, we talk about an e-commerce email ecosystem, which is built around automations, campaigns, and then audience building. So we want to be building our list consistently, understanding our list and gathering data, and again, segmenting that data the right way and gaining more insights into our audience all the time.
Robbie (04:57):
And also cleaning our list. We want to be building automations that drive revenue on a consistent basis, that make that predictable and consistent, and also move each customer through different steps of our customer journey or create the behaviors we want to see through triggers. And then we also want to be sending campaigns that keep people engaged and more deeply connected with the brand. And those three in conjunction really help businesses to grow in really effective ways because you’re not just bringing in people through the front door; you’re also getting them to come back over and over. And typically, when you’re doing that, you’re able to increase the lifetime value of your typical customer base, but you’re also able to incorporate more content, better insight, and hopefully, that’s going to help you raise the average order value per transaction too. So those repeat customers are typically more profitable than your first-time customer.
Tim (05:49):
Yeah, so like the benefit of the ongoing investment is, like, you’re learning and building these campaigns around audiences and what they’re doing versus… I’m guessing I’m not the only person that there are two types of emails that really bother me. It’s the same thing getting sent to you over and over and over where it’s like, you go on a site and it’s like, this is the 20th time they’ve sent me the same offer, and each time I’ve thrown it in the trash or deleted it or whatever it is. I still keep getting that. Or the other one is, I haven’t spoken to you in the last six to eight months, but guess what? We have a big sale on, and we just thought, you know, you haven’t shopped with us in over a year, we’re just gonna tell you about this. So, like, what you’re talking about investing in is actually, it’s living, it’s changing, it’s developing. There are new parts to it; there are parts that are foundational that you’re building. So like, the investment is creating something that’s like an envoy machine.
Robbie (06:44):
Yeah, so you’re building a system that’s gonna work for itself over and over and over. And basically, over the course of however long you’re doing this, you’re gonna have more consistent, predictable monthly revenue because, again, you’re automating the behaviors you want to see, you’re creating unique experiences that move those customers farther into your funnel. And then also, you’re able to think strategically and test those things. So, at any given time, we’re running however many tests we want to be running so we can say definitively, “Yes, this is working better than this; let’s do more of this. This is working better than this. This version of an automation works better off of this time horizon and that time horizon.” And we can say without a doubt, like, “Yeah, in God we trust; everybody else must bring data.” We have good insights into making good decisions. And that also translates to other areas of marketing too, where you can borrow that insight and use it to target.
Tim (07:38):
And then on, like, the investment side, so for somebody starting out, like, where’s the most important place to invest? So like, if somebody had a limited budget, what should they invest in? And then, obviously, somebody that has a larger budget, what can that look like? What’s the minimum viable product, so to speak, where somebody’s like, “Hey, I just need to get into email.” Where do they start, and what should they expect to spend? And then obviously, sky’s the limit, but again, how much should brands anticipate spending to get this going?
Robbie (08:09):
So typically, you’re going to be, again, investing on the front end, and that’s going to be, depending on your business model or like where you’re at, hopefully that group’s gonna—whoever, again, agency relationship or group you may speak to—hopefully they’re gonna be honest and transparent with you. Like, some groups, again, if you’re really small starting out, you’re probably gonna wanna do that in-house. You’re probably gonna wanna get some training. But also, groups that aren’t necessarily at the level of scale that they need to be at, for them to be—basically for us, typically the direction we go with is if it makes sense for somebody to engage with us for a more consistent period of time, then again, we’ll say, “Hey, this actually fits into what would work well for everybody. This is a win-win.”
Robbie (08:55):
If it doesn’t, investing in automations on the front end, getting that automation foundation set, and then building off of that is a really great way to get your house in order. And then sending campaigns on your own, letting those automations work for you in the background through your foundational automations, which can vary from like $10,000 to $20,000 depending on your business. And those really work for you in the background and help you drive consistent behaviors and drive a lot of revenue in your business. But then beyond that, it’s however aggressive you want to be in terms of how many campaigns you want to be sending a month. How active is your audience? How much content do you want to produce so you can actually give them a reason, give yourself a reason to reach out? And that’s where you need to be thinking strategically, like, “How profitable are my different segments? How do I serve them differently and uniquely? Do they want to be hearing from me on a consistent basis? And how do I add value beyond the transaction in a way that’s gonna be helpful for them and not just self-serving?”
Robbie (09:43):
And that’s where that strategic mindset really comes into play because so many people, again, you see, “I put in a few dollars, I send an email that has a discount, you see the revenue on the other side,” it can get really easy to get addicted to that revenue, but you don’t necessarily have the same strategic mindset because essentially, you’re training your audience to expect that, you’re training your business to need that. And when you’re thinking about the strategy, the campaigns, and automations, looking at like $5,000 to $10,000 a month for any larger business, just expecting that as kind of like the baseline for adding one or two automations and then sending a certain number of campaigns.
Tim (10:36):
So like, would it make sense, do companies need to have somebody in-house to do something like this? Or is this one of those things where it always makes more sense to outsource? Like, should you have a part… where’s that balance of knowing when to pull the right levers of working on the business, in the business, hiring somebody, or just like, “We need an expert to drive this”?
Robbie (11:00):
So, where we’re really starting to see this more consistently is working with teams who also have an in-house team. Because again, if they’re at a certain level of scale where that makes sense, we’re wanting to partner with their email team to really serve them and give them a little bit larger tool set and toolkit to use. We see a lot of groups doing well sending campaign after campaign, but they really neglect the automation side. It’s like that Stephen Covey concept: we focus on the urgent and important instead of the non-urgent important areas.
Robbie (11:39):
Where we see the large gap is introducing automations and a consistent foundation, and then improving and iterating on those. This is often missed because everybody gets busy in meetings, focused on other things, and the long-term project of introducing new automations gets left behind. From the email perspective, you’re leaving about 30 to 40% of your email revenue on the table, and that’s painful. This is where you can create unique experiences that people want to come back to because they’re so contextual, relevant, and helpful.
Robbie (12:21):
So working with teams, we like to partner with them by introducing automations, but also adding layers through campaigns if they want additional campaign sends from a different angle on a consistent basis. And that’s where you get more bang for your buck. That’s where we’re seeing some opportunities in the marketplace.
Tim (12:41):
It sounds like a really good, complimentary setup. Like, a good addition where, again, it’s like, “Hey, we’ve got a few of the bread and butter things down, but now you’re layering in all the toppings and the things that people come back for.” It’s like, yeah, it’s good bread, but now it’s a great sandwich. You’ve got something they want to come back and order over and over.
Robbie (13:04):
Yeah, we’re adding layers to what they’re already doing, giving them more consistency and predictability. That predictable, recurring revenue is really helpful. That’s where automations play a role because, hey, if we want to get people onto a VIP list after their second purchase, we can start to do that and pull them in. Those VIPs are likely going to have a higher lifetime value than other audiences. So we can understand what behaviors we want to see and reverse-engineer those in unique ways. Hopefully, we’re helping push your business strategy forward. We often see businesses falling flat in understanding all the levers they can pull to grow, especially in e-commerce. Many focus on the acquisition side.
Robbie (14:00):
And again, are you building a business or a vending machine? When thinking about retention, how do we improve the lifetime value of your customer? How do we improve your average order value? If we can move one or both of those upward, that’s a huge lever for growth because we’re paying for them to come into the business through ads and organic means. We better be able to bring them back and become more profitable over time.
Tim (14:28):
Yeah. So what I’m picking up here is the common problem is investing in the performance marketing side. I’m part of the inbound process with organic, but I even face that too, where some people just throw money at ad campaigns, and that’s their one-trick pony. It’s not bad, but for sustainable long-term business growth, you don’t want to be in that world for the rest of your life. You want it to be part of your world, not your whole world. So what are the common problems? That’s one of them, but what else do you face when it comes to email or proving there’s value in this? I’ve seen it firsthand—like you talked about, that 35-45% of monthly revenue starts shifting to email. I’ve watched it with a client of mine that’s now a client of ours, where that wasn’t even on the revenue table as a monthly thing. And now, it’s one of the most stable legs of their business—the recurring revenue. The more we grow that, the bigger and thicker that leg on the stool becomes.
Robbie (15:40):
Yeah, and with that comes a lot of growth opportunities because the more we work with a business, the better we get to know our clients and their customers. We work to be an advocate, not just for our clients but also for their customers. If we can help them better serve their customers or show them how to, that’s where they really win and grow. We can hopefully help them add layers of strategy to their business, get them thinking differently, and get out of that ROAS rollercoaster mindset. There’s more to growth than just acquisition. How well do you know your customers? How well do you segment them? How do you maximize the value of what you already have? We always joke that email plus SEO is like a one plus one equals four relationship. We’ve got content we want to drive, but how do we monetize it in different ways? If I’m distributing that through email, and that email is generating revenue, I can pay for more content and justify my marketing expense quickly. So, we try to use the whole buffalo and develop a stable marketing platform. If Apple introduces a new privacy update, Facebook ads drop in performance, you have other legs to stand on. You’re not a one-trick pony. You don’t have a one-legged stool. You have a three-legged stool, giving you more stability when volatility hits.
Tim (17:14):
A hundred percent. Again, I’ve seen it firsthand, and it works. But if I’m a client and I know I need to do this, are there issues when they use what’s already built into their CMS, like “Oh, I’m on BigCommerce or Shopify, and I use the native email for abandoned carts,” or “I have MailChimp, and I don’t want to move from MailChimp because I’ve been using it since it first came out”? How do you get around problems like that, and how do people make sure they don’t choose the wrong thing? Are all email platforms created equal, or are some better for certain things? What do the problems look like when trying to get somebody from one to another? Maybe we’re shifting way off topic, but that’s in my mind. If there’s a barrier, people hate stuff that seems intimidating or could risk something. Like, “I don’t want to move my list from here because what if I lose a customer?” or “Is this going to break in the process?”
Robbie (18:23):
And there are some, like, not growth pains, but processes like warming your new ESP—that’s a pain. It’s not the smoothest process because you’re transferring your list over to a new email service provider. You’ve got to show Gmail, Yahoo, and other email clients that you’re a reputable sender. But once you’re there, ideally, you’ll connect better data consistently, and you’ll use that data to get on your toes and off your heels.
Robbie (18:56):
That’s where a lot of platforms really lack—the opportunity to leverage data to connect content with the context of the customer in that space. For e-commerce, where we spend a lot of time, Klaviyo is a unique player because they’ve democratized that use case and focused on it specifically, making it a lot easier. Personally, I didn’t have a lot of faith in email until I was a director of marketing for an e-commerce organization. I thought email was just a nice-to-have. But when I started doing it, I realized, “I’m doing the same thing I did on social but without battling an algorithm, and I’m three steps closer to the cash register.” It makes a lot of sense.
Robbie (19:52):
It feels like cheating because it’s easy to start automating and building those behaviors inconsistently. Most platforms won’t offer the automation capabilities that Klaviyo does. And in terms of problem-solving, you’re kind of building your own solution to problems. If I have to solve a problem, I don’t want to reinvent the wheel—I want to lean on what others have done in my space and what success stories look like to make those decisions.
Tim (20:33):
Yeah. And again, I joked at the start about, you know, Constant Contact—it’s still out there, some people use it—but if you’re in e-com, that seems like a really bad decision to try and keep some kind of legacy tool like that and fit it into your e-comm strategy versus using Klaviyo. Like you said, you’re getting data, learning, and things that are just unique. So it’s worth the pain of making that transition because you’ll accelerate further ahead with the right tool for the job.
Robbie (21:09):
And honestly, we always joke when we’re migrating a client or introducing new automation. If clients are skeptical, we’re like, “Hey, why don’t we just say you don’t pay us until we hit a certain revenue threshold?” And they’re like, “What?” But we’re fine with that because if they’re not leveraging this, there’s so much revenue they’re leaving on the table. So, I’m totally fine saying, “Hey, just pay us whenever you make XYZ dollars.” And they’re like, “Oh, really?” And I say, “Yeah, we’ll be there in a month.” It’s really easy because we’re trying to make that investment easy for them and de-risk it. Once they see the revenue possibilities, it opens up whole new worlds for them.
Tim (21:54):
Yeah. And then we also hit on performance marketing, social, and that one-dimensional focus on growth. I think we can’t understate the importance—especially with Google right now. I love SEO, but I don’t even know if they know what they’re doing. There are so many back-to-back algorithm updates. One day you’re up, the next day you’re down, then you’re back up again. Thankfully, my clients have remained relatively stable, but some other people I know and follow—it’s insane. It’s like, “Alright, we just lost a hundred thousand users yesterday, and oh, we’re back up again.” It’s that rocky and volatile. So, putting all eggs in the SEO basket… I’d love to help you out, but the reality is that’s just one thing. I think getting away from that one-dimensional marketing, email is the safe place to be.
Robbie (22:53):
I always joke that email is just a slang term for retention—email retention marketing and focusing on retaining your customers. There are three ways to geometrically grow a business: you can increase the number of customers, increase the average order value, or increase the lifetime value of your customers. Number two and three get ignored so frequently, but they represent unique opportunities. If we can push up consistent lifetime value, that represents more predictable revenue from existing customers. If they’ve purchased from you before, the likelihood of them purchasing again is really high. Taking advantage of that and maximizing it while you can, you’ll see the ROI pay off quickly. Also, you’re able to collect more data that you can use in other areas of your marketing and build a system that evolves and changes with you.
Robbie (23:50):
So, a year into it, you have a great baseline of recurring revenue through automations, and you have great insights into your customers—knowing what campaigns will work, how they’ll engage, and how to frame things for them.
Tim (24:09):
Yeah. And while you’re saying that, it comes to my mind—as a marketer, I focus on SEO, and there are other marketers who focus on certain things. I feel like we need to stop being competitive with each other, feeling like, “My lane is the best.” I try as much as possible—I want my clients to succeed. If I can grow their audience and get more email signups, and they retain more revenue, that makes everybody look good. If you do paid marketing, having the email there, capturing and retaining that audience, it’s going to make your paid look better.
Robbie (24:48):
Yeah, your ROAS (Return on Ad Spend) will be better because you’re probably converting more of those first-time customers into joining your walk.
Tim (24:55):
I have a client right now, and we literally had this conversation a week and a half ago. They’re slower to move on some marketing things—they’re a big company, they work in technology. They focused on paid ads first; that was their go-to. They saw success with that, and thankfully, the paid side told them, “You need to grow your organic base because we’re hitting our cap on what we can do.” So I started working with them, and now they have more traffic than ever. Recently, Google decided to double the cost of their clicks, so their keywords went up exponentially, and the quality of some leads isn’t as good. I told them, “We need an email mechanism in place because we have more eyeballs hitting the site. If we could retain some of that and move the conversation, that’s going to improve your return in many ways.”
Tim (26:06):
Again, talking about one-dimensional marketing, I think marketers are sometimes guilty of that. We’re like, “You need me and only me to do all these things.” And then something happens, and it’s like, “Well, actually, this is working over here, and it’s their fault.” You need all the pieces. When they work together, they’re complementary. The more the audience grows, the bigger the email list gets, and the more you retain, the more revenue is generated. Your performance, organic traffic—everything continues to grow. You’re feeding the machine, and that’s part of the investment people often overlook. It’s like, “Well, I’m investing in X and Y,” but really, if you have Z—email being the Z, the icing on the cake—it just starts taking more and more of the pie each month. It’s that recurring, protected revenue.
Robbie (27:03):
Yeah, and it’s ideally going to make for a better experience.
Tim (27:07):
I went down a rabbit hole there.
Robbie (27:08):
No, no, it’s perfect. The analogy is like running a 4×400 relay. Paid hands off to SEO, SEO hands off to email, email hopefully again…
Tim (27:21):
And social makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but it’s not handing off the energy. Sorry, social. Social’s great, but they’re the bench warmer on the side.
Robbie (27:30):
Social’s going to be sexy and make your CEO feel warm and fuzzy. But yeah, having spent most of my career in social, I know what that is. It’s just the way those all work together, and this is a way of enhancing and improving it. Again, if you build this retention machine, you gain a different focus on your business. Strategically, we’re adding layers over time to give you more. Our welcome sequence can be improved as we know more about your customers, how to segment better, and how to deliver different experiences.
Tim (28:26):
I don’t like monthly recurring revenue for my business that’s stable. I like wild ups and downs, right? Who doesn’t like to know that every two weeks, you’re going to get paid consistently? Email is that paycheck to your business. It’s there, and each send is paying you. With other things, yeah, they generate revenue, but you can have those heroic days, and then days where you’re like, “Why are people coming to our site and not buying?”
Robbie (29:12):
Yeah, or you feel like there’s something going on.
Tim (29:14):
Yeah, your ads aren’t performing, organic traffic is coming and reading, but nobody’s clicking buy.
Robbie (29:18):
Every e-commerce store has been there, looking at Shopify after a slow day. It’s tense because…
Tim (29:28):
Yesterday at this time, we were at this much. Why aren’t we at this much today?
Robbie (29:32):
Is something wrong with our checkout? Our experience? Is a popover not firing? What’s going on? Those are the games you have to play in your head. Having been there, I know this, but understanding how we make that more consistent and stable is a goal. We want to provide businesses with ways to leverage this as a tool or ways to complement what they’re doing.
Tim (30:12):
So, for someone listening—shameless plug—but what’s the next step if someone needs someone like Robbie or MKTG Rhythm? Where do they start? Is there a resource? Can they reach out to you?
Robbie (30:33):
So if you want to do this yourself, we have a great guide on Marketing Rhythm about the email automation you need. It’s kind of like training wheels to help you build those on your own. If you want to invest in working with us, our email automation sequences vary. It’s going to vary based on your business, and that’s going to be around either $10,000 or $20,000, depending on how much segmentation, nuance, or what we need to step into. If it actually fits into a place where it’s a win-win for both of us, I’ll be honest—I don’t want to take on clients that aren’t a good fit. We turn a lot of people down, saying, ‘Yeah, we can’t do these things first. Come back to us once you’re at a certain level because you need some more fundamental stuff.’ But for those groups that come in and work with us consistently, that’s where you’ll start to see a lot of consistent growth. It’s about understanding how many customers you have each month, your average order value, and your retention rate. Then we can say, ‘Yes, we can help you grow and scale quickly,’ or, ‘You’d be better served doing this on your own.’ We can provide the training wheels, but we want you to be at a certain rate before we step in to help.
Tim (31:54):
That makes sense. If I had an email list of 45 customers, it’s probably not enough for you at this stage.
Robbie (32:03):
You have to have a list and a consistent customer base. Being able to have at least over a thousand customers a month is what we really look for. Because if you don’t have some type of acquisition, we don’t have enough to work with. We can retain customers all day long, but at some point, if you don’t have that, it’s kind of a judge of product-market fit. If you have demand for your product, and if it’s working well, we’re going to be able to get people to come back. If that’s not there yet, it’s harder for us to build that. Again, we don’t want to put lipstick on a pig; we just want to make sure that you’re in a good place and growing so we can serve you in the way you need to be served.
Tim (32:44):
So, recapping on mktgrhythm.com, there’s a resource if you want to learn how to do some of this yourself, and it’ll walk you through the basic foundational automations and things you need in place. But really, if someone has an audience that’s approximately a thousand or so customers per month, at that stage, having the conversation about where to go next—whether to really pour gasoline on what they’re doing or to move forward—just reaching out is the way to go.
Robbie (33:12):
That’s the easiest way to do this. And yeah, I’ve realized we’ve turned this into a shameless plug for MKTG Rhythm, but yeah.
Tim (33:20):
Well, again, I’ve seen it work firsthand, so I felt the need to just say, “Hey, why not?” It’s something where a company that takes this seriously and wants to invest in it, it’s good to talk to people who know what they’re doing. Even if I’m pitching it as working with you, Robbie, you’ll learn a lot from this guy.
New Speaker (33:39):
Either poking holes and spanking your baby, or showing you or validating that you’re doing the right thing. A lot of it comes down to confidence and how confident you are. Ideally, if we can help those e-commerce marketers and store owners sleep a little better at night knowing, “Hey, I’m doing the right thing, I’m maximizing my opportunities,” then that’s a huge value add and worth its weight in gold.
Tim (34:29):
Robbie, always fun, man.
Robbie (34:30):
Okay, Tim, until next time. This was a treat, this was a pleasure. If you have questions or insights, or if we totally missed the mark on this, let us know. We’d love to hear from you. Again, shameless plug to like or comment, but we’ll see you guys next time, and I think we have some cool things in the pipeline.
Tim (34:48):
We’ve got a couple of fun episodes on the horizon. Looking forward to hearing from you guys soon, and with nothing else, it’s Tim and Robbie. We’ll see you soon.
[Outro]
